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The Suggestion...
Merlin Evolution is MR4 (or MR4 as it stood back in Oct 2011) with a map that is generated on the principles of evolution.
How it works
At first ten random maps are generated. Maps score points for how much the player explores. The theory is that the more a player explores, the more fun they are having.
Each map has to be played at least once (though as they evolve maps my demand to be played more than once, for a fair hearing). Once all ten maps have been played, the game selects the best map based on it's average score (score/plays).
This map is then copied ten times, but like evolution, the copy is imperfect and some features of the map change. These new ten maps are the next generation. A perfect copy of the best map is also placed into the next generation just in case all of the copies are acutally worse than the original.
Once all eleven have been played the best one is taken and the process starts again. That's evolution baby!
Each tile on each layer of the map is represented by a 'gene' not a real gene of course, just some code I made. Each gene contains it's current value plus rules about which values it's valid for it to contain, plus a value that represents it's chance of mutating (being copied incorrectly). Because the mutation rates of genes can themselves mutate, this allows the possibility for parts of the map to become more stable while other parts can be still in flux.
So will any of this actually work? There only one way to find out...
The more we play, the better it should get. But don't expect miracles straight away.
To try to recognise the effort that people put into to playing the game I put in a feature where it records who did what so at least I can thank you for playing it.
Unfortunately that feature isn't working currently. I will fix it as soon as I can of course.
I have played enough maps myself so that Merlin at least appears! I will continue to play whenever I can to try to move things along but the more of us join in, the faster things should get better.
I will do a write up of how the evolution part works in more detail, and probably publish the relevant code. I want this idea to be taken and used by as many people as possible.
Comments
Just to say if it ends up producing a geniunly good map, we can use it as the basis of the MR4 one.
Oh my god steve. OMI GOD OMI GOD OMI GOD
:)
I'm really liking the idea. The main thing I've noticed is that most of the maps are nigh impossible. Every time, I've either died on the first or second screens. Of course, with more generations, I'd imagine this will fix itself.
I'm really interested in where this goes.
I'm really interested in where this goes.
I'd also suggest that the system toss some maps out before they're even offered. Maps without a Merlin, for instance.
My main fear would be the amount of time for decent maps to evolve. I think it'd be better if each individual screen was scored instead. If a map is made which is perfect except for the starting screen that has three Ochres, Merlin will always die and the map is useless. Finally, if you haven't yet, cheats should be disabled.
My main fear would be the amount of time for decent maps to evolve. I think it'd be better if each individual screen was scored instead. If a map is made which is perfect except for the starting screen that has three Ochres, Merlin will always die and the map is useless. Finally, if you haven't yet, cheats should be disabled.
Super merlin, agree entirely. The maps do have a tendency to become overcrowded, which in turn makes them very difficult.
Cheats have been disabled as we don't want using cheats to become necessary to play the maps.
I did think about scoring rooms individually, but we ideally want the rooms to work together as a journey.
The scenario you describe shouldn't be a problem as map which lets you escape to the second screen will always score more highly than one which doesn't.
I agree it may take a while to get something good, but we're not in any rush. I totally recognise that playing mr evolution is more work than fun at the moment, that's why I am so keen to recognise player's contributions with the charts and graphs.
But by playing we are also collaboratively designing it, which is a new experience.
Cheats have been disabled as we don't want using cheats to become necessary to play the maps.
I did think about scoring rooms individually, but we ideally want the rooms to work together as a journey.
The scenario you describe shouldn't be a problem as map which lets you escape to the second screen will always score more highly than one which doesn't.
I agree it may take a while to get something good, but we're not in any rush. I totally recognise that playing mr evolution is more work than fun at the moment, that's why I am so keen to recognise player's contributions with the charts and graphs.
But by playing we are also collaboratively designing it, which is a new experience.
Haha, it seems that I was faster; [comment_43565] in [Suggestion_7098]
Steve, you've really done a good job on working with the website recently; at least more new stuff is visible than in a while.
Anyway, I still think that force spawning Merlin somewhere on the first screen would be great - I'm not entirely sure that the chance for that might become better over time either. Although eventually the best maps will be those where Merlin spawns in a stable way, due to 11 maps being played by one person quickly Merlin might just disappear for a while as well, resulting in potentially more boring more - or should I say, less fun ones. I played out quite a few maps today, and only one contained Merlin and even that one had just four rooms. I'd also like to point out the possibility that you've overlooked the chance of two merlins appearing or something funky like that. There's also a chance of blank tiles appearing as walls; I suppose this is both a good and a bad thing at once, depending on viewpoint. IMO it's at least not a particularly good thing.
It also could be worth it to reduce the mutations in one generation to nine - this way the generation would always be ceil(maps/10) and the current map of the generation is mod10(maps). Of course, this way it's at least partially more obfuscated to the average human eye. I also found it confusing that the amount of deaths is a "leaderboard" of sorts - IMO the amount of maps played conveys that well, along with loss not really being an achievement.
I'm also at a loss with how the system will actually make the game better.. Are the mutations that severe or will the games eventually become very similar to each other? What if the only maps with merlin, which make it "through the bottleneck", are very stable and the following generations are very much like that map? In that case the game will only play maps very similar to each other, in which case the effect of "fun" is greatly reduced? Well, that is unless the system makes mutations more severe if the amount of fun for a generation of maps suddenly decreases greatly.
I'm also not sure if I understood this correctly, but does only one map of each generation survive to the next? Wouldn't it be better to have, like, top 2 maps? We also could rate individual tiles by the amount of quits there are when they appear. Of course, this factor should only be used for moderate consideration and never exclude the tile from being generated - at most, perhaps reduce the relative chance of being mutated into by around 50%.
Steve, you've really done a good job on working with the website recently; at least more new stuff is visible than in a while.
Anyway, I still think that force spawning Merlin somewhere on the first screen would be great - I'm not entirely sure that the chance for that might become better over time either. Although eventually the best maps will be those where Merlin spawns in a stable way, due to 11 maps being played by one person quickly Merlin might just disappear for a while as well, resulting in potentially more boring more - or should I say, less fun ones. I played out quite a few maps today, and only one contained Merlin and even that one had just four rooms. I'd also like to point out the possibility that you've overlooked the chance of two merlins appearing or something funky like that. There's also a chance of blank tiles appearing as walls; I suppose this is both a good and a bad thing at once, depending on viewpoint. IMO it's at least not a particularly good thing.
It also could be worth it to reduce the mutations in one generation to nine - this way the generation would always be ceil(maps/10) and the current map of the generation is mod10(maps). Of course, this way it's at least partially more obfuscated to the average human eye. I also found it confusing that the amount of deaths is a "leaderboard" of sorts - IMO the amount of maps played conveys that well, along with loss not really being an achievement.
I'm also at a loss with how the system will actually make the game better.. Are the mutations that severe or will the games eventually become very similar to each other? What if the only maps with merlin, which make it "through the bottleneck", are very stable and the following generations are very much like that map? In that case the game will only play maps very similar to each other, in which case the effect of "fun" is greatly reduced? Well, that is unless the system makes mutations more severe if the amount of fun for a generation of maps suddenly decreases greatly.
I'm also not sure if I understood this correctly, but does only one map of each generation survive to the next? Wouldn't it be better to have, like, top 2 maps? We also could rate individual tiles by the amount of quits there are when they appear. Of course, this factor should only be used for moderate consideration and never exclude the tile from being generated - at most, perhaps reduce the relative chance of being mutated into by around 50%.
It seems that I've misunderstood the way the game works. Rather than each generation being a set of maps, each map has its own evolving cycles - in stead of the game in itself evolving, the maps do, it seems.
Fascinating.
If a map has more average fun than other maps, will the chance of it appearing and therefore evolving faster also increase?
Fascinating.
If a map has more average fun than other maps, will the chance of it appearing and therefore evolving faster also increase?
And.. Will any of the already played maps with more fun than 1 come again? Will there be new generations of maps? I've played plenty by now and all it has given seems to be new, randomly generated maps..
Quadruple post!
This game never ceases to amaze me. A completely empty map with only grass. Wow.
This game never ceases to amaze me. A completely empty map with only grass. Wow.
I'm not sure what's happened, but I think that spells should be reset when reeling and that punch and other melee attacks should do proper reeling. I suppose there's an enhancement of the engine, but I'd really like it if punches could actually do something. The reason I was able to beat the demos with punch was because they actually disabled the enemies from attacking if used correctly; since that's impossible and it's too slow to get in range and run away against most ranged enemies, such techniques are impossible to use.
Apart from that, I really think that the "fun" maps should get to be replayed more.
Apart from that, I really think that the "fun" maps should get to be replayed more.
And cleared maps should have their fun boosted by a bit.
It seems that when entering the f2 menu, any active objects in certain states stay on the screen after exiting. I noticed this when some gfx errors came up such as the screen persisting on screen if you die while it's drawing itself and if you exit when something else is drawing itself. However, those are fixed by something else drawing on top (like when the map loads).
Unlike this one, which apparently isn't just the objects being drawn on screen after entering the menu. I exited casually just as the screen was cleared, since it didn't spawn Merlin. The result indeed was quite interesting, in fact. At first I thought it was a gfx glitch like the ones before, but..
Perhaps cutting the fade-in of the pause menu may solve this, hmm?
Unlike this one, which apparently isn't just the objects being drawn on screen after entering the menu. I exited casually just as the screen was cleared, since it didn't spawn Merlin. The result indeed was quite interesting, in fact. At first I thought it was a gfx glitch like the ones before, but..
Perhaps cutting the fade-in of the pause menu may solve this, hmm?
If you gonna spam there is a spam page. DANG IT MEGAMAN!
*facepalm*
*facepalm*
Hey, at least I'm giving both feedback and ideas! :p
Like, yeah, I'm making a lot of posts, but that's just another incentive for Steve to implement an option to edit comments. I didn't know I'd actually see glitchy stuff like what I mentioned above after posting my initial wall of text (and the confusement statement in the other suggestion).
Like, yeah, I'm making a lot of posts, but that's just another incentive for Steve to implement an option to edit comments. I didn't know I'd actually see glitchy stuff like what I mentioned above after posting my initial wall of text (and the confusement statement in the other suggestion).
Oh, right, and being able to open the pause menu WHENEVER is obviously bad. :c
Like, yeah, you can just straight open it in the main menu and resume the game.
Like, yeah, you can just straight open it in the main menu and resume the game.
Oh, right, and being able to open the pause menu WHENEVER is obviously bad. :c
Like, yeah, you can just straight open it in the main menu and resume the game - if you've quit from a map beforehand, that is.
And in this game, quitting happens. A lot. And pausing, far more than elsewhere, so it's no wonder this was overlooked. There are some other glitchy stuff which go with it, like quitting in cutscenes or reading the instructions while seeing the keys while reading instructions in the army menu..
Like, yeah, you can just straight open it in the main menu and resume the game - if you've quit from a map beforehand, that is.
And in this game, quitting happens. A lot. And pausing, far more than elsewhere, so it's no wonder this was overlooked. There are some other glitchy stuff which go with it, like quitting in cutscenes or reading the instructions while seeing the keys while reading instructions in the army menu..
Stuff like this might happen if you do something like that.
Another room for improvement: The stats should refresh more often. I'd love to see how many rooms I've beaten etc.
More or less interesting facts: This will be my 2727:th comment. I have made a total of 272 votes and my suggestions' average rating is close to 2,72.
More or less interesting facts: This will be my 2727:th comment. I have made a total of 272 votes and my suggestions' average rating is close to 2,72.
Oh yeah, and those invisible dwellings which just spawn a bunch of monsters are fairly annoying.
I agree with everything you say megaman4ever
But the most important thing amongst your posts is that you actually showed me that the evolution engine had effectively crashed!
For some reason, after spawning generation 11 it went back to generation 0 and the maps you saw that were mostly blank and seemed random, actually were random. It had effectively started again.
I have deleted all those blank maps and generation 11 and started again from generation 10.
There is also a bug where the best map brought forward is not currently being played.
But the most important thing amongst your posts is that you actually showed me that the evolution engine had effectively crashed!
For some reason, after spawning generation 11 it went back to generation 0 and the maps you saw that were mostly blank and seemed random, actually were random. It had effectively started again.
I have deleted all those blank maps and generation 11 and started again from generation 10.
There is also a bug where the best map brought forward is not currently being played.
Oh...
.....No wonder that even after playing over 300 maps, nothing really changed! That pretty much crashed my motivation to play any more today, haha.
So this is what you lot have done so far, huh? It looks great! Too bad I didn't have much of a say so far as to what it looks like or actually see the development due to that unfortunate issue.
.....No wonder that even after playing over 300 maps, nothing really changed! That pretty much crashed my motivation to play any more today, haha.
So this is what you lot have done so far, huh? It looks great! Too bad I didn't have much of a say so far as to what it looks like or actually see the development due to that unfortunate issue.
Yep.
I have fixed the best map not being played bug as well.
And just to be clear (though I think you worked this out yourself) we are designing one map here. The ten (or eleven) maps per generation are variations of the one map design.
However, given what you were seeing earlier, I can see why that would have been not very apparant :)
I have fixed the best map not being played bug as well.
And just to be clear (though I think you worked this out yourself) we are designing one map here. The ten (or eleven) maps per generation are variations of the one map design.
However, given what you were seeing earlier, I can see why that would have been not very apparant :)
Indeed so!
But, this also means that users should be aware that whenever they see a map with good design, they should play it as far as they can. If the mutation creates very out-of-place backgrounds but easier enemies, the maps will get a higher fun factor despite actually being worse, no? Will this fix itself over time from a mathemathical perspective?
So from what I gather, what we actually are getting here, eventually, is the easiest possible but playable map, no? It will take a long time and cooperation from all the users to make the map more difficult through mutations over time. Of course, you might've already planned for this in the code in a way or another, but yeah - or maybe we'll just stop when the gameplay is cool to the people and then create backgrounds around it, dunno. Just my thoughts.
But, this also means that users should be aware that whenever they see a map with good design, they should play it as far as they can. If the mutation creates very out-of-place backgrounds but easier enemies, the maps will get a higher fun factor despite actually being worse, no? Will this fix itself over time from a mathemathical perspective?
So from what I gather, what we actually are getting here, eventually, is the easiest possible but playable map, no? It will take a long time and cooperation from all the users to make the map more difficult through mutations over time. Of course, you might've already planned for this in the code in a way or another, but yeah - or maybe we'll just stop when the gameplay is cool to the people and then create backgrounds around it, dunno. Just my thoughts.
well at first the easy maps will be more popular just because people will be able to do them.
but there is no upper size limit on the maps so a big easy map will get boring and players will stop playing because they are bored.
so in order to really make you explore the map will have to be at least somewhat interesting/entertaining/challenging.
but I do agree, if you like a map somewhat better than the others you've played lately, try to reward it by playing as far as you can.
but there is no upper size limit on the maps so a big easy map will get boring and players will stop playing because they are bored.
so in order to really make you explore the map will have to be at least somewhat interesting/entertaining/challenging.
but I do agree, if you like a map somewhat better than the others you've played lately, try to reward it by playing as far as you can.
Map 513, generation 0.
At least this time I was able to choose better.
Also, my scores have been reset; my CV showed around 15 played maps when I checked it a while ago. Around 50-80 maps later (seems that it didn't take long for that motivation to find its way), when it went back to gen 0 and I checked again, the scores had completely disappeared!
I also find if confounding why the stat graph draws itself as it should on each refresh, but the "high scores" do not. I wonder whether it's a problem occurring only with me or whether it's a bug in the server or in the game or the communications inbetween.
I was also wondering when, after a while, the same maps started playing; is the system made so that input from more than one user is required to advance in generations? Why is it "has been played by x Unknown players [from memory]" in stead of usernames?
At any rate, the current maps are mostly pretty cool and thankfully even somewhat challenging to clear. The GMG is really strong in this game and fun to use as well whenever one comes across.
Also, I suppose my earlier worry is baseless - at least I'm here to remove all the maps which are too easy! <3
At least this time I was able to choose better.
Also, my scores have been reset; my CV showed around 15 played maps when I checked it a while ago. Around 50-80 maps later (seems that it didn't take long for that motivation to find its way), when it went back to gen 0 and I checked again, the scores had completely disappeared!
I also find if confounding why the stat graph draws itself as it should on each refresh, but the "high scores" do not. I wonder whether it's a problem occurring only with me or whether it's a bug in the server or in the game or the communications inbetween.
I was also wondering when, after a while, the same maps started playing; is the system made so that input from more than one user is required to advance in generations? Why is it "has been played by x Unknown players [from memory]" in stead of usernames?
At any rate, the current maps are mostly pretty cool and thankfully even somewhat challenging to clear. The GMG is really strong in this game and fun to use as well whenever one comes across.
Also, I suppose my earlier worry is baseless - at least I'm here to remove all the maps which are too easy! <3
Ok so I've fixed the generation 0 bug now.
Unfortunately your earlier efforts were all against the previous generation 0 maps. So they were deleted when I rolled back to the previous working generation.
And now, the attribution is not working correctly, so none of us are being attributed for our efforts. That is also why it says "Unknown players" instead of the usernames.
Anomolin is the user I have made up to represents Anonymous wizards but I should probably change it to Unknown players in the charts too.
So yes, the charts are updating but they data they are reading is not (except for Anomolin).
I have played waaay more than 4 maps!
Unfortunately your earlier efforts were all against the previous generation 0 maps. So they were deleted when I rolled back to the previous working generation.
And now, the attribution is not working correctly, so none of us are being attributed for our efforts. That is also why it says "Unknown players" instead of the usernames.
Anomolin is the user I have made up to represents Anonymous wizards but I should probably change it to Unknown players in the charts too.
So yes, the charts are updating but they data they are reading is not (except for Anomolin).
I have played waaay more than 4 maps!
Yeah, I figured out more or less as much. Glad to see that it's under work! I can't help but feel slightly dismayed because of not getting my results attributed (er?), but it won't really matter in the long run. Heck, I'm still in the top 10 of MR2 too.
Yeah I'm really bummed about that too. I have an idea for a better system but will take some time to do.
Ok I've found a workaround.
make sure you login and play at http://themetalbox.com
if you go to http://www.themetalbox.com it doesn't pick up your session and you don't get credited.
I will set up a redirect to make sure everyone is on http://themetalbox.com
make sure you login and play at http://themetalbox.com
if you go to http://www.themetalbox.com it doesn't pick up your session and you don't get credited.
I will set up a redirect to make sure everyone is on http://themetalbox.com
I have no idea how that can even work, but.. I suppose I don't have an idea about most of the things in the Internet.
Still, er, while I most certainly do notice that it seems to be the solution, how come that just removing the "www." from the URI helps?
Still, er, while I most certainly do notice that it seems to be the solution, how come that just removing the "www." from the URI helps?
I was thinking about it afterwards
Php uses a cookie in the user's browser to store a token which represents a session on the server.
This server side session contains information about the fact that you've logged in.
Cookies are domain specific, otherwise websites would be able to read each other's cookies.
The game is hard coded to send requests to http://themetalbox.com as you are playing. As far as the browser is concerned this is a different website to http://www.themetalbox.com, so it doesn't send the cookie, and php makes a new session, where you are not logged on yet.
Simple, really :-\
Php uses a cookie in the user's browser to store a token which represents a session on the server.
This server side session contains information about the fact that you've logged in.
Cookies are domain specific, otherwise websites would be able to read each other's cookies.
The game is hard coded to send requests to http://themetalbox.com as you are playing. As far as the browser is concerned this is a different website to http://www.themetalbox.com, so it doesn't send the cookie, and php makes a new session, where you are not logged on yet.
Simple, really :-\
Ah, I see.
Well, glad that the major problems are all solved now! Onwards to procrastinate!
Well, glad that the major problems are all solved now! Onwards to procrastinate!
I love being able to single out the map I'd love to survive the bottleneck and become the base of the next gen! Wait, there's someone who doesn't want Scarlet on the first screen? Too late; play more yourself. :P
Also, it's interesting how the first rooms are pretty tough but the eight new rooms of the map are pushovers. I suppose that all this will balance out eventually.
Also, it's interesting how the first rooms are pretty tough but the eight new rooms of the map are pushovers. I suppose that all this will balance out eventually.
Argh! I hate the scarlet wizard he's so op!!! Lol :-P
You know it's funny I had a feeling you would like this when I was playing it locally when it was being built. Mainly because it can be so challenging, and the challenges are always changing. You always found the original games a bit easy I think :-)
Yeah the outside screens will always be easy I guess since they are starting from blank and will take a few generations to populate fully. I guess that will continue until the maps find their optimum size. Assuming there is such a thing as "too big".
By the way I only got up generation 9 playing locally, so we are already way into uncharted territory for me. It's really great!
You know it's funny I had a feeling you would like this when I was playing it locally when it was being built. Mainly because it can be so challenging, and the challenges are always changing. You always found the original games a bit easy I think :-)
Yeah the outside screens will always be easy I guess since they are starting from blank and will take a few generations to populate fully. I guess that will continue until the maps find their optimum size. Assuming there is such a thing as "too big".
By the way I only got up generation 9 playing locally, so we are already way into uncharted territory for me. It's really great!
Is your local gen9 very different of what the current online map's like? The original games were cool - so much that I played them quite a bit and eventually discovered pretty much all I could concerning gameplay. This is pretty refreshing and an interesting change though. It would be even better if more people played it, though! :D
The beginning screens are what will change most in the very long run - they'll change to be appropriate in difficulty. I have a feeling that the outer screens won't actually even matter that much in a long time since the beginning is fairly challenging, and once it becomes easier, fully exploring the map will be troublesome.
Personally I usually make the decision of either quitting or playing the map as far as I can based on the first screen. It doesn't really give a fair representation of the map - perhaps the room order could be randomized or something? It might make things much more interesting and varied.
It also becomes dull to play the similar first rooms over and over again to take a look at what's new - usually there isn't that much to explore anyway and the changes between generations are fairly small. The players want to look at what's new, too - that's the thing which actually determines whether or not the map deserves an effort of completion. If you do implement a randomization thingy, the first screen should remain in place though, since it's so dominant in terms of gameplay. I went through two generations to get both GMG and the beam there with Scarlet!
Of course, this is only from my viewpoint. For those players who don't play as much the change is bigger and they'll get more out of this, I suppose. Talking about the wizards, though - don't you think that Scarlet, Ochre and buddies have too much life? It was fine in MR3, but here.. Having to kill - or rather, waste - a few in a row is daunting. It's not the difficulty which makes it bad, no, but rather the amount of HP they have makes it kind of dull. Of course, it increases their threat since they survive so long, but it makes clearing a single screen with one of them take a very long time. GMG+Beam, which is imo the third-best combination, takes over two minutes to drain their life. The orc mages are pretty bad in terms of longevity too, but not quite as big a problem if the big wizards don't get to summon as many. I'd rather this be more action-packed in stead of having to wait a long time just to finish one wizard off. Yes, while playing games like this, two to five minutes is a long time, especially since it's just one piece of a single screen.
The beginning screens are what will change most in the very long run - they'll change to be appropriate in difficulty. I have a feeling that the outer screens won't actually even matter that much in a long time since the beginning is fairly challenging, and once it becomes easier, fully exploring the map will be troublesome.
Personally I usually make the decision of either quitting or playing the map as far as I can based on the first screen. It doesn't really give a fair representation of the map - perhaps the room order could be randomized or something? It might make things much more interesting and varied.
It also becomes dull to play the similar first rooms over and over again to take a look at what's new - usually there isn't that much to explore anyway and the changes between generations are fairly small. The players want to look at what's new, too - that's the thing which actually determines whether or not the map deserves an effort of completion. If you do implement a randomization thingy, the first screen should remain in place though, since it's so dominant in terms of gameplay. I went through two generations to get both GMG and the beam there with Scarlet!
Of course, this is only from my viewpoint. For those players who don't play as much the change is bigger and they'll get more out of this, I suppose. Talking about the wizards, though - don't you think that Scarlet, Ochre and buddies have too much life? It was fine in MR3, but here.. Having to kill - or rather, waste - a few in a row is daunting. It's not the difficulty which makes it bad, no, but rather the amount of HP they have makes it kind of dull. Of course, it increases their threat since they survive so long, but it makes clearing a single screen with one of them take a very long time. GMG+Beam, which is imo the third-best combination, takes over two minutes to drain their life. The orc mages are pretty bad in terms of longevity too, but not quite as big a problem if the big wizards don't get to summon as many. I'd rather this be more action-packed in stead of having to wait a long time just to finish one wizard off. Yes, while playing games like this, two to five minutes is a long time, especially since it's just one piece of a single screen.
Yes there are a lot of tweaks I would like to make to the game engine for this map. Some are minor some not so much. I'll list what I can remember here so's not to forget.
* reduce evil wizard HP
* make energy beam accurate again (why does it wiggle so much?)
* bring back the 'reel' some enemies (again evil wizards) don't budge when you hit them any more
* Army summon summons whole army instead of just one unit (it's pretty much useless at the moment)
* call friend 'f' calls all friendly wizards (or at least one per press)
* remove invisible solid blocks
* remove invisible dwellings or give them a graphic
* monster summon may need a buff too
* energy pulse - try to increase collision detection check frequency.
* slightly reduce orc mage hp
* reduce evil wizard HP
* make energy beam accurate again (why does it wiggle so much?)
* bring back the 'reel' some enemies (again evil wizards) don't budge when you hit them any more
* Army summon summons whole army instead of just one unit (it's pretty much useless at the moment)
* call friend 'f' calls all friendly wizards (or at least one per press)
* remove invisible solid blocks
* remove invisible dwellings or give them a graphic
* monster summon may need a buff too
* energy pulse - try to increase collision detection check frequency.
* slightly reduce orc mage hp
Anyone else think this conversation should be held in privacy?
Anyone?
Anyone?
No, because this way others can contribute as well, tmow.
I think Energy Beam is alright with GMG as-is; it makes spells like Energy Blast nearly completely redundant. Without GMG, it could fire more often and with pinpoint accuracy though.
You can press C to summon one of each unit in the army - very handy. Just press C twice and you've maxed out the amount of army units on screen. You can cycle through friendly wizards with R, and imo being able to summon all would be overpowered - they are not only strong but really beefy. One should be enough; you can unsummon and switch wizards and summon that one in battle. I'd rather be able to unsummon wizards anyway - I suppose that if you do want to have everyone assist, summoning one at a time with F and being able to unsummon them with Army Summon would be alright, as long as their durability is slightly cut down (like, in half - they really are nigh-unbeatable currently with Heal or unsummon techniques).
The invisible dwellings are there to create some scenic in the MR4 alpha - some Orcs rush out from the screen edge, spawning to attack the skeletons from their fort and stuff like that. However, the invisible spawns should be disabled entirely in Evo, imo. It's not something one orc mage or orc/skel dwelling on the screen couldn't do.
Monster summon is also very strong at the moment - I haven't read your comment on the level up thing but if it's made easier, you'll have access to higher level monsters more easily. Even if it stays completely the same, it's a very nice spell because of the defensive capabilities - you can essentially fire an infinite wall of bodies the enemies will target instead of yourself. Just shoot a skeleton or two in front of you and it really will relieve the pressure when going solo.
The other changes - enemy HP lowering and reeling, energy pulse check, removal of invisible solids are alright at glance. In my opinion Energy Pulse is very strong though - with GMG, definitely the second-best spell after Mines, but it's also very much more difficult to use than Mines or Beam with the GMG. Without the GMG, it's pretty great, but not as overpowered as to receive any nerfs.
I think Energy Beam is alright with GMG as-is; it makes spells like Energy Blast nearly completely redundant. Without GMG, it could fire more often and with pinpoint accuracy though.
You can press C to summon one of each unit in the army - very handy. Just press C twice and you've maxed out the amount of army units on screen. You can cycle through friendly wizards with R, and imo being able to summon all would be overpowered - they are not only strong but really beefy. One should be enough; you can unsummon and switch wizards and summon that one in battle. I'd rather be able to unsummon wizards anyway - I suppose that if you do want to have everyone assist, summoning one at a time with F and being able to unsummon them with Army Summon would be alright, as long as their durability is slightly cut down (like, in half - they really are nigh-unbeatable currently with Heal or unsummon techniques).
The invisible dwellings are there to create some scenic in the MR4 alpha - some Orcs rush out from the screen edge, spawning to attack the skeletons from their fort and stuff like that. However, the invisible spawns should be disabled entirely in Evo, imo. It's not something one orc mage or orc/skel dwelling on the screen couldn't do.
Monster summon is also very strong at the moment - I haven't read your comment on the level up thing but if it's made easier, you'll have access to higher level monsters more easily. Even if it stays completely the same, it's a very nice spell because of the defensive capabilities - you can essentially fire an infinite wall of bodies the enemies will target instead of yourself. Just shoot a skeleton or two in front of you and it really will relieve the pressure when going solo.
The other changes - enemy HP lowering and reeling, energy pulse check, removal of invisible solids are alright at glance. In my opinion Energy Pulse is very strong though - with GMG, definitely the second-best spell after Mines, but it's also very much more difficult to use than Mines or Beam with the GMG. Without the GMG, it's pretty great, but not as overpowered as to receive any nerfs.
Lol! Awesome!
I don't even know how to play this game!
Haha well I will try out the techniques mentioned before changing anything, that's for sure.
But yeah I agree about the invisible dwellings - I can see the point of them for other maps but not for mr evo, which doesn't rectrict itself to putting them at the edges of the screen.
I don't even know how to play this game!
Haha well I will try out the techniques mentioned before changing anything, that's for sure.
But yeah I agree about the invisible dwellings - I can see the point of them for other maps but not for mr evo, which doesn't rectrict itself to putting them at the edges of the screen.
Beating you at your own game, huh? :P
It's pretty neat how this project has fired both of us up, it would be great to have others give out their views as well though. :D
It's pretty neat how this project has fired both of us up, it would be great to have others give out their views as well though. :D
I wonder. If it would be better to give the option to choose a random map from each generation. As to make things easier on the player.
I'm only keeping the files of the winners of eash generation on the server. This is to save space.
But there's no reason why, with a bit of modification, the game engine couldn't play them on demand.
Equally, with a bit more modification, we could make some human designed maps available.
But there's no reason why, with a bit of modification, the game engine couldn't play them on demand.
Equally, with a bit more modification, we could make some human designed maps available.
Human designed maps online, huh. Maybe users should be able to upload them as well, eventually? The system would check whether they are legitimate and, say, under a certain size or something.
Actually, now that you mention it, I'm starting to feel like finishing this one map I was doing for a while but never got around finishing... It was supposed to be epic and the best custom MR3/4 map ever but I couldn't gather the motivation to finish. Only around 10-15% done currently, but at least I think I'll get it around halfway done.
Actually, now that you mention it, I'm starting to feel like finishing this one map I was doing for a while but never got around finishing... It was supposed to be epic and the best custom MR3/4 map ever but I couldn't gather the motivation to finish. Only around 10-15% done currently, but at least I think I'll get it around halfway done.
Yes, also the map designers could be given some information on how players play their maps. Rooms visited, where they die etc.
This is truly amazing Steve! I really like the concept!
Thanks man! As far as I know, no one has done this before. :)
I think you brought up this concept awhile ago but I wasn't sure how it would work. Once I find my mouse and give it a play, I'll give my thoughts.
Cool :)
So is it possible to seed the game with existing maps?
I haven't gotten a look yet, but I'm already imagining some changes to the tiling structure that would help the map generation out a bunch.
Like, dividing the tile sets into groups(just by writing tables to complement the existing sets) so the level editor can properly put edges on backgrounds/put the right complementary tiles and such, and have an idea about the team structure and strengths of different units.
The outlay of different teams and strengths would be values to add to the genetic algo
I haven't gotten a look yet, but I'm already imagining some changes to the tiling structure that would help the map generation out a bunch.
Like, dividing the tile sets into groups(just by writing tables to complement the existing sets) so the level editor can properly put edges on backgrounds/put the right complementary tiles and such, and have an idea about the team structure and strengths of different units.
The outlay of different teams and strengths would be values to add to the genetic algo
Yes thoughts like this have crossed my mind too - rather than just placing random tiles it would help the look of the thing if we specified things like "place a giant tree" and the height of the tree could be genetically controlled.
Or walls could be placed and grown into mazes, some wall renderer would decide the proper tile to use based on the wall tiles around it.
For the first version I wanted to see what evolution could achieve on it's own but I do think this kind of thing would be a good idea.
Currently you can't seed the game with existing maps. But it's something that should be easy enough to add.
Or walls could be placed and grown into mazes, some wall renderer would decide the proper tile to use based on the wall tiles around it.
For the first version I wanted to see what evolution could achieve on it's own but I do think this kind of thing would be a good idea.
Currently you can't seed the game with existing maps. But it's something that should be easy enough to add.
That way you could even advertise the SDB! :D
Something along the lines of Use a custom map -> "Paste (ctrl+v) the data of your map here. You can find more great maps from the Suggestion Database!" Or perhaps add a link to the user panel which searches for suggestions which are MR4/map and orders them by most recent suggestion.
Oh, and please change the view suggestions -link so that it orders the suggestion by newest comment rather than rating. I can't imagine it being more than opening the php file and changing the target of that single link so that the parametres are different.
Something along the lines of Use a custom map -> "Paste (ctrl+v) the data of your map here. You can find more great maps from the Suggestion Database!" Or perhaps add a link to the user panel which searches for suggestions which are MR4/map and orders them by most recent suggestion.
Oh, and please change the view suggestions -link so that it orders the suggestion by newest comment rather than rating. I can't imagine it being more than opening the php file and changing the target of that single link so that the parametres are different.
No you're right it is that simple, will do it next time I'm in front of my own computer (typing this from college) :)
What.... What is this, im so confused i have been away too long!
Whew, some of the maps are pretty challenging.. I think that there should be some limitations implemented on the map generation, to prevent some completely weird stuff from appearing. Like getting five Ulins, or some of the more out-of-place blocks not being generated or only generated with accompanying blocks to make it look good.
Or, there could be some pre-made structures, while trees and the like could be pretty much random. Or some sort of voting system, to really find out how much fun the player is having. Or an actual fourth game. The possibilities are endless.
Or, there could be some pre-made structures, while trees and the like could be pretty much random. Or some sort of voting system, to really find out how much fun the player is having. Or an actual fourth game. The possibilities are endless.
I definitely agree about the blocks, was thinking that myself.
"You are not logged in. You may play, of course, we wouldn't turn you away. But alas, if we don't who you are, we can't credit you for your efforts. Login."
So, er, shouldn't it say "if you don't know who you are"?
So, er, shouldn't it say "if you don't know who you are"?
No, it shouldn't. Anyway, add in the "know".
Another bug (speedrunning Zelda really makes you find this kind of stuff more easily, huh):
When you are wasted, choose to have the game give you another map. Just as the new map cutscene has almost finished loading and the button has almost started disappearing, click "return to the title screen" - the option that's available along with the whatever skip option there is when viewing cutscenes.
This causes the game to return to the title screen while loading the map. And after it has initialized, almost all the objects a invisible!
http://gyazo.com/ef15b766ce91bceecba5d919d6ce6153.png
Notice the orc shot that is in the circled area - it has been fire by an invisible orc, as well as the thunder mage projectile. Merlin is invisible. Half your allies are invisible. Half of the spells, and most notably the three dwarf towers which don't shoot for whatever reason even though they are complete, are invisible.
When you are wasted, choose to have the game give you another map. Just as the new map cutscene has almost finished loading and the button has almost started disappearing, click "return to the title screen" - the option that's available along with the whatever skip option there is when viewing cutscenes.
This causes the game to return to the title screen while loading the map. And after it has initialized, almost all the objects a invisible!
http://gyazo.com/ef15b766ce91bceecba5d919d6ce6153.png
Notice the orc shot that is in the circled area - it has been fire by an invisible orc, as well as the thunder mage projectile. Merlin is invisible. Half your allies are invisible. Half of the spells, and most notably the three dwarf towers which don't shoot for whatever reason even though they are complete, are invisible.
I have not yet fiddled with the glitch at all, but I am expecting that merlin is non-existant and the player can't do anything but quit. However, the maps I tested this on didn't give the notice about Merlin not being there.
So, er, yeah, an interesting bug, eh. The bug from pausing whenever seems to persist still as well, although it appears to require the player to exit the game through pausing in-game now.
http://gyazo.com/5b402cebb318e1bf702ad5553dd2adf9.png
Overall, with proper and stunning reel, Evolution feels even better than it was.
So, er, yeah, an interesting bug, eh. The bug from pausing whenever seems to persist still as well, although it appears to require the player to exit the game through pausing in-game now.
http://gyazo.com/5b402cebb318e1bf702ad5553dd2adf9.png
Overall, with proper and stunning reel, Evolution feels even better than it was.
Lol, I'm guessing the sprites were not released by the cut scene properly, so they are are still "fading out". Merlin is likely to be invisible too.
I don't know what happened, but the mines are completely broken with the GMG now! It might have to do with the new reel, but I don't think so.. The basic blast (which makes the mine) seems to do at least double the damage from before - as well as interrupts whatever the enemies are doing and hits them back by quite a bit.. The Beam is stronger as well, but I don't think that it's yet a problem. I haven't tried either spell without GMG yet.
Well, I don't know how much of a balance between spells we are looking for here, since in MR2 the summon outclassed energy blast in pretty much all aspects, and beam outclassed summon. It makes sense to have a progression in video games - but I think that just having more options for various situations is pretty good already. Not to mention that Evolution pretty much hands you most of the spells at random anyway.
Well, I don't know how much of a balance between spells we are looking for here, since in MR2 the summon outclassed energy blast in pretty much all aspects, and beam outclassed summon. It makes sense to have a progression in video games - but I think that just having more options for various situations is pretty good already. Not to mention that Evolution pretty much hands you most of the spells at random anyway.
It's really great against large targets.
...But just, quite a bit difficult to use.
...But just, quite a bit difficult to use.
In my current version, it doesn't miss:P
I likely fixed some bug or another for it.
I likely fixed some bug or another for it.
I played Evo for a bit, and noticed two things:
1) Did the fun calculation method change? The curve seems much tamer than in the beginning when variation between 800 and 0 was common.
2) It would be nice if the generations were shorter or the mutations greater; playing a couple of successive maps doesn't feel that great since they are so similar by now.
3) I'm still kinda unsure about how accurately fun can be estimated with the amount of screens played. :)
1) Did the fun calculation method change? The curve seems much tamer than in the beginning when variation between 800 and 0 was common.
2) It would be nice if the generations were shorter or the mutations greater; playing a couple of successive maps doesn't feel that great since they are so similar by now.
3) I'm still kinda unsure about how accurately fun can be estimated with the amount of screens played. :)
1 no i noticed that too. i attributed to maybe an excellent player had stopped playing and completing the maps 2. yeah it would i did limit it a bit 3 it's all very scientific :)
I wonder what kind of device you wrote that with? :)
Oh yeah, there's also a pretty neat BBC Micro emulator written in JS: http://bbc.godbolt.org/?disc=Welcome.ssd#
Shift+F12 boots the loaded disc :)
Oh yeah, there's also a pretty neat BBC Micro emulator written in JS: http://bbc.godbolt.org/?disc=Welcome.ssd#
Shift+F12 boots the loaded disc :)
It's a sad fact that these days I tend to access this site from my iPhone more than my computer
That's definitely pretty sad, all things considering. I never got into the apple craze, thank goodness.
I guess 24/7 interwebs is pretty handy on the bus or something, but then again there are plenty of things that can only be done without a phone in hand.
I guess 24/7 interwebs is pretty handy on the bus or something, but then again there are plenty of things that can only be done without a phone in hand.
I found that the only tactic that seems to work for me in this is getting the GMG along with the chargeable blast and building it up to such a size that it instantly kills almost everything on the next screen, summoning allies, and then killing whatever is left with the energy beam + GMG.
I have tried other tactics, but it seems nothing else really works for me. Is this the way the game is intended to be played?
I have tried other tactics, but it seems nothing else really works for me. Is this the way the game is intended to be played?
I haven't played Evolution in AGES due to some resentment towards Internet Explorer. Maybe I'll check it out one of these days.
Update: I checked it out, and, er, it kind of worked but froze on the first screen. Sceneries of a remnant past flashed before my eyes, before I realized that today is the deadline for a Calculus II assignment.
Also this happened on MR1; it was completely unresponsive. Running Windows 10 version 1511, IE 11.589.10586.0.
Update: I checked it out, and, er, it kind of worked but froze on the first screen. Sceneries of a remnant past flashed before my eyes, before I realized that today is the deadline for a Calculus II assignment.
Also this happened on MR1; it was completely unresponsive. Running Windows 10 version 1511, IE 11.589.10586.0.
It screwed up for me badly with IE, often deciding to freeze on its own after some time and then not thawing out. Chrome just failed to load it and seemed to be trying to install it on my computer or something. It works fine with Firefox though.
Alrighty, I'll get around to downloading Firefox one of these days and giving it a shot. The map certainly seems much more difficult than before, but I think that there should be something that can be done. :)
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Merlin Evolution Released!